Guns Drawn, Bank Fraud Charges, and a Dismissal

Ryan: I still have an element of shock that it even happened. Three silver sedans converge on my driveway all at once. When I step out, there are six government agents in a defensive position behind their vehicles with both hands on the grip.

Amy: All they are doing in this moment is showing you all the degrees of power they have over you.

Ryan: The people that decided to do this, they had no way to control how big my personal blast radius was.

Alex: So I wanna take you back to the very first day when you learn you’re under investigation. When do you first find out, “Oh my goodness, I’m in the crosshairs of the federal government”? I’m Alex Little, a former federal prosecutor who now is a defense lawyer that stands on the other side of the courtroom defending clients.

Amy: And I’m Amy Nelson, a former Wall Street lawyer and entrepreneur who’d never touched criminal law until the FBI knocked on my door, and I had to walk my husband through a four-year DOJ investigation.

Alex: This is the TARGET podcast. And today I have with me o- one of our clients at Litson who I met, uh, over a year ago, more than, almost two years now. And, uh, his story, I think, is one that is both, uh, you know, a resounding sort of victory for the rule of law and for sort of the way things should be, and also a real warning about how things can go bad when, once again, a institution is interested in, in bringing federal charges and what they can do. Uh, so we have with us Ryan Bloom. Thank you for being here.

Ryan: Excited to be here. Thank you.

Alex: Um, so Ryan, we’ll talk a little bit about kind of the, the atmospherics and kind of what happened in your case. It’s a, it was a bank fraud allegation in Oklahoma City. But I wanna sort of talk as we do in all of these podcasts about the human toll and kind of what it’s like as a person to go through this. Um, so I wanna take you back to the very first day when you learn you’re under investigation. You’ve not received any sort of, you don’t have an attorney, you haven’t received any sort of letter saying you’re under investigation. When do you first find out, “Oh my goodness, I’m in the crosshairs of the federal government”?

Ryan: So it was a super hot Friday morning in July, and I was at home with one of our four kids. Uh, my wife was with another kid and her mom, picking another one up from camp, kinda everybody’s just heading different directions. And I got a call from Alicia, my wife, and she said, “Ryan, um, someone got ahold of me. They’re with the FBI, and they want to arrest you.” And I was like, “Uh-”

Alex: Is it a joke? Like…

Ryan: That was my thought. I thought th- “Wait, what?” And so I pulled out my phone, and I had a string of missed calls.

Amy: How many calls?

Ryan: 10. I mean, just one after another, but they were just going straight to voicemail because it was an unknown caller. And so I called the phone number back, and the voice on the other line introduces himself as a special agent with the FBI, and he has an arrest warrant, and it’s his, uh, demand that I step outside of my house and surrender.

Alex: And were you home at that time, or you, you not yet back?

Ryan: I’m in my bedroom. It was probably 7:15 or so in the morning. Um, I work remotely, and I was w- kinda getting ready to, you know, log on for the day. Um, and because everybody was gone, I had a, you know, one of our kids who, you know, he was n- nine at the time, was, you know, sleeping in m- my wife’s, you know, sleeping in our bed. And he’s kind of watching this whole thing unfold with me, and we truly think it’s a, a scam or a practical joke. Those, that, that’s our first thought.

Alex: It’s not words you’re used to hearing, especially at 7:15 in the morning.

Ryan: I have never heard those words… before or since. And so, I mean, I think I even teased the agent, like, “How many iTunes gift cards do you need me to go get?” Like, I’m thinking this has gotta be-

Alex: Somebody in, in, in-

Ryan: … a scammer

Alex: … Nigeria.

Ryan: And he says, “Well, you’ll know it’s not a scam when you look outside your window.” And so I pull my window to the side, and three silver sedans converge on my driveway all at once.

Alex: Hmm.

Ryan: And I’ve talked about this before, but, like, one of the most painful, gut-wrenching moments of the entire ordeal is that I turn around and I see my son, and he has the biggest smile on his face because he thinks it’s funny. He thinks it’s a joke. It is not registering to him or even to me as a danger. At this point, we are just so caught off guard by this moment.

Amy: And what happened next?

Ryan: So as you mentioned, I didn’t have an attorney. I had a bankruptcy attorney, and I didn’t… I, I, like, what do you do when you’re getting arrested? You call your lawyer.

Amy: So before you stepped outside, you called your lawyer?

Ryan: Yes. I called this bankruptcy lawyer- And as I learned, bankruptcy lawyers are as far from criminal lawyers you know, as, as anyone.

Alex: They don’t deal with that situation very often.

Ryan: They don’t ever. You know, it’s one of those, “In my 30-plus years of practicing I’ve never had this, you know, kinda happen before.” Um, or maybe one other time. It was very different circumstances. And so he said, “Just, like, check for a warrant. Make sure you’re not being kidnapped.”

Alex: Right, right. Make sure these guys are who they say they are.

Ryan: Yeah, and, and, uh, I mean, it just was this moment of, of just total chaos. And so the agent had told me to come outside with nothing in my pockets, shoes on. And I stepped outside, and I had forgotten to put the shoes on in-

Alex: Yeah, yeah

Ryan: … your, your, your brain has shut down at this point.

Amy: Where’s your son at this point?

Ryan: So, and this is, like, a source of guilt, I guess, that in, uh, between calling him and this guy demanding that I come outside, I completely forget about my son for 30 seconds. And so he’s inside, and as I learn later, he watches this whole thing go down, and then he hid-

Amy: Ugh

Ryan: … because he thought that he was gonna get arrested. And he got out his iPad, and he tried to do the Find My, and he tried to-

Alex: Like, track you

Ryan: … track Dad. He didn’t realize that I didn’t have a phone, a wallet, Apple Wat- I didn’t have anything to track me. And so, and, and later, when my dad came to pick him up, um, he didn’t realize my dad was safety, so the sound of the door opening and, you know, my dad calling out to him, you know, at first terrified him more-

Alex: Absolutely. Right

Ryan: … because he, uh, they wouldn’t… So, um, they, you know, shouted at me to, you know, put my hands in the air, and I, uh, you know, dropped the shoe. End up getting the shoes on. And then they rush in, and, um, and I remember when I stepped out, and the doorbell footage confirms the same, they d- when I say they were pointing their guns at me, I don’t mean that they had guns with them. I mean, when I step out, there are six government agents in a defensive position behind their vehicles with both hands on the grip.

Alex: You signed up to be a federal agent, and you think that you somehow are in danger executing a search war- you didn’t know what it was at the time. Later, you know, you found out it was a, a allegation of, at that point I think one count of bank fraud or a few counts-

Amy: So-

Alex: … of bank fraud

Amy: … nothing violent.

Alex: Nothing violent at all.

Amy: Nothing to do with any violence.

Alex: You have no, you have no criminal history.

Amy: It is like, it is probably, I mean, one of the most… It’s probably the most traumatic experience of your life. Like, it, it-

Alex: And completely unnecessary

Amy: … completely unnecessary, and then changes how you view everything, the safety of your home. Like, all of it, right? And-

Ryan: Yes, and-

Alex: Core memory for your child.

Amy: Yeah. God.

Ryan: Core memory that he won’t… Other than a debriefing in which he shared some basic information with us, he won’t talk about it. And he’s, he’s a great kid. He’s doing well in school, has good relationships with friends. Um, but on numerous attempts to just kinda unpack it, he just says, “Can we not?”

Amy: Ugh.

Ryan: And then that’s it. And so, um, it was, he was unnecessary. It w- uh, all of that was so unnecessary. And then as I learned on my car ride downtown, the agent knew that we were an approved foster care home. He knew a lot of personal details about us that would definitely soften any risk assessment that this was gonna be anything other than, uh, just an ordinary arrest.

Alex: But he wanted to pretend that he was a big, strong man and he needed to pull his gun out, because he doesn’t get to do that enough with his wife at home.

Ryan: Well, and what was funny about that too was we, we leave the neighborhood, and he was anxious to get his vest off. Just uncomfortable. Just like-

Alex: Okay, so they’re wearing also bulletproof vests for this, you know, very high stakes arrest. Instead of just calling and saying, “Hey, Ryan Bloom, come down to the-

Ryan: Which-

Alex: … place,” and-

Ryan: Which for p- you know, if people haven’t been through this process, they can absolutely do.

Alex: They can.

Amy: They can say, “Can you come down?”

Alex: “Show up. Here’s a, here’s a summons.” “You need to be there tomorrow at 9:00 AM, and show up in front of the judge.”

Amy: And one of the reasons they don’t wanna do that is because they, I think they’d like to talk to you without your lawyer, because if-

Alex: They wanna talk to you without a lawyer. And they wanna intimidate you into saying, “We have power. If you don’t do what we want, we can, you know, make your life miserable.”

Amy: And the public shame of it all, right?

Ryan: Absolutely.

Amy: Because it’s your neighborhood, it’s your community, and they’re out there with guns.

Ryan: Absolutely.

Alex: And if any FBI agent wants to get on here and have a debate with us about why that is somehow appropriate or necessary-

Amy: As someone who has-

Alex: … I welcome that conversation, because-

Amy: Yeah. I never went through what you went through, but executed, they executed a search warrant at our house with guns drawn, knowing we had four little girls, pre-dawn, in the dark, and I will never forget them for it. I can’t.

Ryan: And they’re-

Alex: Completely unnecessary. Twice.

Ryan: And so h- he, you know, arrests me and spins me around, and I’m, you know, headed for the back seat. And then I s- I was like, “Um, uh, guys, my son’s inside.” “My, my son is in there.” And they asked me if there was someone I could call to come get my son. Well, again, remember that my wife’s out of town, um, and, you know, I, I kinda feel like I have the, the one phone call. And luckily, um, my dad answers every phone call that is placed to his phone.

Amy: My dad is the same. My mother would never answer.

Ryan: It could say-

Amy: My father will answer

Ryan: … it could say spam guaranteed, and-

Alex: Let’s, let’s just find out

Ryan: … he will just make sure that this isn’t legit.

Amy: This is why.

Ryan: And so you can only imagine the shock I deliver to him. “Dad, this is Ryan. You’re never gonna believe this.” You know, and that’s like every phone call. You know, “D- Dad, you’re never gonna believe this.” And so I, um, I just told him that I needed him to come get our son, and he’s asking me, “Who is arresting you? Where are they taking you?”

Alex: And you don’t have answers.

Ryan: And I don’t know. And luckily he lives close by. And after I got off the phone with him, I asked the, uh, agents if I could let my son know, and the answer’s like, “You’re not going backwards.”

Alex: Yeah, again, totally unnecessary. They could absolutely have done that, and they just… You know, it’s like the, the robotic, like, just ignorance of some folks. It’s just unbelievable.

Ryan: And later I read the report from that day, and-

Alex: The, the FBI 302 officially.

Ryan: Yeah, read the report, and they noted that their diligence, if you will, in this moment, was one of the agent- couple of the agents stayed behind to watch over the house until my dad could arrive.

Alex: Yeah, God forbid someone talk to the child. Like you talk to the child.

Amy: Just let the child live in terror.

Alex: Or just take-

Amy: And the thing is too, I mean, you know, I know that you didn’t know that you were a target, but the way that the FBI works oftentimes, like, if you know you’re a target and you’re like, “Okay, fine, I’ll plead guilty to your allegations” you can just walk in to, and self-surrender into a precinct like Bernie Madoff, right? But, uh, if, if you know you’re a target and refuse to cower, or if you don’t know you’re a target, it’s guns a-blazing.

Alex: And let, and let’s go back. I mean, you at this moment, um, and no criminal record of any kind. Never. N- no run-ins with the law, a completely law-abiding life.

Amy: Entrepreneur.

Alex: A- absolutely, and so you-

Ryan: Maybe a speeding ticket one time. Level of criminality.

Amy: Ryan’s full disclosure. His criminal record.

Ryan: I, I wanna be so clear here.

Alex: But-

Ryan: Maybe a speeding ticket

Alex: … but, you know, well-educated, you’re living in your own home in Oklahoma City, uh, no reason to believe you’re gonna wake up and end up in the back of, of, of a FBI agent’s car. What is, how disorienting a feeling was that when you were driving from your house to someplace you didn’t know where you were going?

Ryan: It still feels surreal. You could visit me today and tell me that you have good authority it never happened, and I would probably tend to believe you. It’s still… I’m, two years later, I still have an element of shock that it even happened. Sitting on my hand, on my wrists, and it was incredibly uncomfortable, and the seat in front of me is slid all the way back to where I’m just pinned into this FBI car. And the, I’m in the right backseat, and the agent’s in the left seat, and he really wants me to talk. And I could liberate my wrists and get them onto my lap, but only if I was gonna talk.

Amy: Really?

Ryan: And I thought, and it was probably, looking back, I probably wasn’t at risks, at risk to lose circulation to my wrists-

Alex: But it felt that way

Ryan: … but it felt that way.

Amy: Like, it shows you kind of the power. Th- all they are doing in this moment is showing you all the degrees of power they have over you.

Alex: Yeah. Oh, it’s just-

Amy: Right? In so many different ways, and how you can get a little bit back-

Ryan: It is-

Amy: … if you just do what they say

Ryan: … it, af- when I first m- and not to jump too far ahead in the story, but when I first met my first attorneys, they first of all thought surely I had ignored the target letter, and their response was, “Everyone gets-” “… every white collar defendant gets a target letter.” And then when I described the arrest-

Alex: You’re like, “Actually, I did not.”

Ryan: I, I’m, guys, I checked the mail. I don’t know what to tell you. And then their second take was, “You pissed off the wrong person. Who do you think you could have pissed off to get this level of treatment?”

Amy: I just-

Alex: Let, let me go back to the beginning. Uh, because the, the target letter for folks, uh, we’ve talked about it on the podcast, for folks who haven’t heard, I mean, target letter is generally a, generally a letter that the prosecutor sends to people they’re investigating to say, “We think you may have committed a federal crime. We advise you to get an attorney and have that attorney contact us.” And it’s very common in white collar cases to do that, to initiate that conversation, and perhaps the person says, “Yes, actually, I committed that crime. Let’s talk about a resolution.” You didn’t get that letter. That’s what you’re talking about.

Ryan: I did not get that letter.

Alex: Yeah, go ahead.

Amy: And to pause, to back, to back up to your lawyer saying you must have pissed someone off. The fact that the lawyers who work in this system, you know, on a repeat basis understand that the law can be wielded like that, as, like the full force of the US government can be used-

Alex: To

Amy: … when you have made the wrong person angry That is so contrary to what we are taught, to what we believe about our country, and it’s horrifying.

Alex: So you, you don’t talk in the c- in the car.

Amy: Or did you?

Alex: Correct. Or, or do you talk?

Ryan: Oh, no. I talk. And Alex, the fact that you had to be reminded of that tells you-

Alex: Uh, you didn’t give him anything.

Ryan: … that I obviously didn’t, didn’t send it in the wrong direction-

Alex: Right. Right

Ryan: … or I’m sure the audio of me talking-

Alex: Would’ve been

Ryan: … w- would’ve been something-

Alex: You said that line, but-

Ryan: … that you and I had to talk about more often. So I initi- so I declined to speak. A- and it was, it was not even like a, like smug, “I need my lawyer.” It was like… I, I think I said out loud, “Man, I’ve watched some cop shows.” “I think I’m not supposed to talk right now.”

Amy: I think you deserve a slow clap for that one-

Alex: That’s good

Amy: … because I think-

Alex: So many people don’t do that

Amy: … so many people, so many people think, “I have to talk or I look guilty.”

Alex: That’s right. Or-

Amy: First of all, they think you’re guilty so it doesn’t matter how you look Don’t talk. Get… Like, get your lawyer.

Ryan: And, and I said, “What is this about?” And he says, “Well, this has to do with your former company and this bank.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And, and then that was, that was all he was willing to talk if I didn’t sign, you know, f- sign away my, uh-

Alex: And how did he expect you to sign away your rights in the car with the handcuffs and, and all that jazz then?

Ryan: Well, that was a deal that we cut.

Amy: Your first deal.

Ryan: So we pull over, and he, um… We pull over th- and they get their vests off. And then we’re leaving, and I ask if there’s any way to get my wrists in my lap. So we- We pull over, and, um, and I get my cuffs moved, and I sign away my Miranda rights, and he begins an in-custody interview. And without going into, you know, just all the details that we could be here all day, he begins to tell me that I have lived in an alternate universe… in which my company never did a project in Omaha, Nebraska.

Amy: Oh, you were a sham com- it was a sham.

Alex: Sham project, sham something.

Ryan: It was a sham project.

Amy: You were a sham person.

Ryan: I was n- almost a sham individual. In fact, later on he asked me… if my wife knew that she was married to-

Alex: Hmm

Ryan: … you know, to a scammer.

Amy: I mean, it’s… It… Sometimes it’s so funny because the things that FBI agents will say to you are kind of like the caricature lines in a movie, and you’re like, “We can do this the hard way or the easy way.”

Ryan: Oh, my God, yes.

Alex: Like, sometimes I wanna go to Quantico… and just be like, “How dumb is this crew?”

Amy: It’s tough.

Alex: Like, aren’t there some just, like, basic intelligence tests they run?

Amy: And again, I’ll say this as I always do, I’m sure there are a lot of great FBI agents.

Alex: There are.

Amy: This is just not the batch that we’re-

Alex: I will say-

Amy: … dealing with right now

Alex: … it’s not… They’re not apparently in Oklahoma City.

Ryan: Not this one. And so, and I’m like, “No, I, I did.” And not only had we built this project, the… My company was a construction company. We constructed, uh, all different types of infrastructure. In particular in Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska, we were building charging stations, electric vehicle charging stations. And not only had we built this site, we had finished the site. We had commissioned the site. This wasn’t even a debate… about, about whether it had been-

Alex: Substantially completed or-

Ryan: … finished to anyone’s satisfaction. This was truly him telling me that I hadn’t never even been to Omaha or Lincoln, Nebraska.

Amy: So something he could have phoned his colleague in Omaha-

Alex: And found out

Amy: … and confirmed within five minutes.

Ryan: Well, that didn’t happen. Because as I learned, the entire investigation before the grand jury indictment was he placed three phone calls. And so where the conversation, though, with the agent soured was, as my attorneys who listened to the audio, uh, told me, I started interviewing him. And it wasn’t on purpose. It wasn’t… I wasn’t trying to be smart. I was like, “Wait a minute. We filed liens on these projects. You know, legal instruments against the properties themselves for the unpaid balances that we were owed.”

Alex: Good construction fund there.

Ryan: Yes. And just typical construction legal stuff, and we’d hired attorneys to do that. This was on the up and up. And I keep asking him questions, and he finally just looks at me and says, “If you’re not gonna tell the truth-

Amy: Damn it

Ryan: … we might as well just go downtown.”

Amy: And, and it’s it’s so interesting, right?

Alex: But I’ll-

Amy: Because he’s like, “The truth that I have decided is the truth.”

Alex: “The truth, the truth that I decide, which is completely wrong.”

Amy: Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Alex: Like completely-

Amy: But it’s my truth

Alex: … alternate universe

Amy: So if it’s not your truth-

Alex: “How dare you not tell me-

Amy: Just-

Alex: … the false stuff”

Amy: … off to prison with you.

Alex: We, we know it’s false because, you know, I, I was eventually became your attorney, not at this time, later. So the agent has this very false view of what’s happening. Uh, do you, do you, in time, sort of… You have this, these two things that have happened. You’ve been arrested, which came out of nowhere, and then you’re in the back of a squad car, and the agent’s just sort of spouting off things which aren’t true. Uh, does that make that even more discombobulating that not only are you there, but you’re there in this sort of, you know, completely parallel universe?

Ryan: Not only does it make me feel like I live in a, I’ve lived a different life than another person is describing to me, it also gave me a false sense of how difficult it would end up being-

Alex: Mm. Mm

Ryan: … to make it go away. Because I thought, “This is a huge misunderstanding”, and I have … I could have produced thousands of artifacts of the projects-

Alex: That he’s asking about

Ryan: … in Lincoln and Omaha, and I thought in my head, “Well, we will just show him all this stuff, and then it will just go away.” And part of my s- false sense of hope is he then told me something that you guys … I hope you can stay in your chair when I tell you what he tells me. He says that the basis of his evidence is that he called these former customers that were general contractors. And remember, if they say they don’t owe the money… the money stays in their pocket. This is the… This is so simple. And the person he’s talking to is the person who writes the check. These are relatively small general contractors that we were doing this work with. They have a direct financial incentive to minimize any outstanding bills to a bankrupt company-

Alex: Right. Yeah

Ryan: … as much as possible. And he said… And I said, “Well, those people are lying to you.” And he said, “Oh, people don’t lie to the FBI.” “People don’t lie to the FBI.” “Because if they did, they would be in very, very big trouble. And so you’re lying or they’re lying.”

Alex: So let’s fast-forward. I mean, to the folks who don’t know the ending, we obviously do. I represented you. Um, weeks before trial, the government, uh, dismissed the charges, um, decided not to take you to trial, you know, that you’re not convicted of anything. You have- don’t have to serve any jail time. Um, so by, you know, besides the fact of what you went through, you got a result that most folks don’t have the opportunity to get. Um, so I wanna talk about at this first day where you’re going through this. Walk us through what it’s like when you get to read the charges, you get put in the courtroom, and tell us whether you could see that ending or whether it looked incredibly frightening.

Ryan: I think the ending … I imagine the ending coming much faster and at a much smaller price. And-

Alex: But you believed in it. But you believed even at that moment, like, there was no despair. There was no sense of like, “I can’t get out of this.” There is a sense of, “I’m going to prevail.”

Ryan: Uh, I would say there was a naive optimism-

Alex: Yeah, that’s fair

Ryan: … in that moment. Um, and so that day, I’m at the US Marshals. I get assigned a federal public defender. This US Marshal walks in, and I’m in… Uh, at first I’m in this little holding cell with, um, glass on the other side so I can be interviewed by the, uh, probation office for supervised release, um, so that I can be appointed a public defender to, you know, plead me not guilty. Um, and then this marshal walks in with this brown sack, and he sa- He slams it down and he says, “This is lunch. If you eat it, that’s on you. If you don’t eat it, that’s also on you.” So this one guy that I’m in the cell with, I’m processing all this, right, out loud, and I said, “I don’t know why they arrested me. I don’t… Why did they arrest me? Like, did they think I was gonna run?” And this, this, the kid with the Glock switch, he was hilarious, by the way. Um, he was like, “Well, all due respect, you literally look like you’re about to go for a run.” ’Cause I’m wearing sneakers and a, and Nike shorts and a T-shirt.

Alex: Oh my God.

Ryan: And I said, “You know what, dude? That’s fair.”

Alex: That’s fair.

Ryan: That’s fair.

Alex: He like… Ryan realizes he’s minuscule to the FBI and he puts on his running gear.

Ryan: And so eventually I get called back to the room, and there sits my dad’s civil attorney, who my dad just calls for general civil matters, and sitting next to him is who would become my criminal defense attorney. And they’re… They just say, “Hey, how are you doing? You’re gonna have an arraignment this afternoon. You’re gonna be able to go home this after- You know, you’re gonna be able to go home tonight, and we’re gonna enter an appearance as soon as we can, but just calm down.”

Alex: Yeah. And so this is really interesting in this moment. So you’ve been arrested. Your life has been turned upside down out of the blue unexpectedly, and you are about to go to battle and go to war, and this happens so often. The lawyer that you find yourself with is somebody, some other lawyer you or your family member knew. It’s not someone you, like, went out and researched. It’s not someone… And then the, kind of the inertia of it, you just stick with that usually.

Ryan: Yes. And so I felt like, I felt like I could make this better by having somebody here immediately. And what I didn’t realize was as fast as all this had happened, there’s really time to walk-

Alex: Oh, for sure

Ryan: … not run-

Amy: That’s a good point

Ryan: … to a defense attorney. But in that moment, it felt like an emergency. You know, if you’re having a heart attack-

Alex: Well, it is in that moment an emergency, right?

Amy: It is. Yeah.

Ryan: Yes. But if you’re having a heart attack, you’re not researching the best cardiologist in town.

Alex: You’re going to the ER.

Ryan: You are going to the ER, and whoever they give you, you hope is good. In this moment, it felt like an emergency where if I didn’t have someone today it was going to get worse tomorrow. And so a big piece of advice I would give anyone, even if you’re so far down the road as I was, where you are in this emergency moment, is you get a target letter, or heaven forbid you get arrested like I did, walk, don’t run to the nearest, but not even the nearest, to the best attorney that has experience in the type of case you have. And you’ve gotta have a sobering reality check really of what kind of resources you can put your hands on. Um-

Amy: And I think, too, what I would add, like when you choose an attorney, someone that will fight.

Ryan: That’s part of that track record. And so at 3:30 that day, I get ordered out of the cell. They put a chain around my waist. They handcuff my wrists to the chain and the chain down to the ankles, and I waddle into this courtroom, and that was probably one of the most shocking moments, because you’re going through this maze of hallways, up elevators, down elevators across, through, and through, and then all of a sudden, the door flings open, and you’re in a wood-paneled United States federal courtroom. And there’s a judge. There’s attorneys. There’s agents out in the crowd. Everyone’s in suits, and you’ve just been in a regular office hallway and where it’s silent, and you’re flung into there, and there’s this massive just commotion of this arraignment that’s about to take place. And so my federal public defender, she comes over to me, and she’s whispering, and she says, “Okay. The judge is about to tell you that you’re facing 30 years.” And a $100 mandatory… you know, whatever.

Alex: Hundred, hundred dollar.

Amy: This is a real, this is a real thing. Like, they’ll be like, “30 years in prison and a $500 fine.” Like, you know-

Alex: It’s 30 years in prison, a $500,000 fine, and a mandatory $100 special assessment.

Ryan: It’s a special assessment and it’s per charge.

Alex: Yeah. That stacks.

Ryan: It stacks. And so, you know, I’m thinking in my head, “Well, any way I can just settle the $100 today?”

Alex: Like, just pay or sign, like, a power of attorney.

Ryan: Can we get the $100 here? And so and this is, where this is gonna go is really gonna tie back to that risk assessment, you know that this AUSA and this FBI agent were doing, you know, when they arrested me that morning. But she tells me that you, you’re facing 30 years, but she says, “But all federal cases are sentenced off of the sentencing guidelines,” and she pulls out this book with this table in it. And she’s like, “So see here, I’ve looked at your indictment, blah, blah, blah, blah. You’re only facing, like, five to seven years.”

Alex: Only.

Amy: Only, right?

Ryan: And I was like, “What? This is not reassuring.” And she says-

Alex: You’re like, “Hold on. Run that back.” “I thought you told me five to seven years, and that was good. You meant five to seven days?”

Amy: Ugh.

Alex: “Five to seven months?”

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. And I… And then she turns to my attorney, who’s sitting out in the crowd, and she says, “By the way, you know you don’t have to use that attorney just because your family brought him here.” She says, “My office would love to take your case. You would have the full resources of the federal public defender’s office.” And then she says, “And by the way, if your family has money to pay an attorney, you’re gonna get questioned. It’s gonna look bad on you when we start talking restitution because the money that you’re gonna spend on this attorney could be going to restitution.”

Amy: Oh, wow.

Ryan: And all this gets whispered to me as I’m just sitting there in this room, completely bound.

Amy: But it’s like you’re taken from your home, and you’re thrown into the Hunger Games arena, and you don’t even know what the game is. You don’t… And everybody else there is an expert in the game.

Alex: You don’t know, you don’t know the rules.

Amy: Yeah. You don’t know the rules. You don’t know how to survive.

Ryan: Yes. And you’re like the cop-

Amy: And everybody, everybody else knows the rules.

Ryan: Yeah, and you’re like, “And the cop show didn’t cover this part.”

Alex: Like, wait a minute.

Ryan: And so she, and then she tells me the, the assistant United States attorney is not opposing you being sent home.

Alex: Oh, thank you.

Ryan: You just have to sign here that if you don’t show back up, you know, it’s, like, a $5,000 signature. So just take into account that clearly I was not a flight risk.

Amy: Absolutely.

Alex: No, not at all.

Ryan: And the government admitted that because I- I did not even have to get permission to leave my district. I could’ve f- I could fly anywhere in the country, and I didn’t even have to get permission first.

Amy: But let’s bring 7,000 guns to the home in front of your child-

Alex: That is crazy

Amy: … at 7:00 in the morning.

Ryan: And they didn’t search my house, so it wasn’t like they needed s- to arrest me so that they could execute-

Alex: Right, a search warrant. Yeah

Ryan: … a search warrant, and they… And I didn’t, at that time, I didn’t have a condition that I couldn’t talk to witnesses, any preservation of evidence, whatever, so there were absolutely no concerns I was a flight risk. There were no concerns I wouldn’t show up for court. There were no concerns I would destroy evidence, intimidate witnesses. Um, the business was defunct, so it wasn’t like-

Alex: Continuing, yeah.

Ryan: … the, this could continue in any way. And so, and they admit that by not opposing this, the… I mean, 5,000 is the minimum. And so that just tells you that the whole arrest was completely intimidation, theater, pissed off the wrong person.

Alex: Yeah. And we’re hoping maybe you’ll say something when we get you without an attorney in the corner. We can-

Ryan: And, and maybe you’ll say something stupid

Alex: … get something out of you that’s useful. Yeah.

Ryan: Maybe you’ll say something stupid.

Alex: I, it’s just such an indictment of the way the system works. So, uh, speaking of the indictment, um, at what point did you get to read it? Did you get to read it before you walked into the courtroom or, or after? When did they actually slide that piece of paper over and you got to see your name versus the United States?

Ryan: So pretty consistently you will hear people in my position tell you that the first time they see United States of A- of America versus their name, that it is surreal. It is. It is. It hits you like a ton of bricks. And I think I got… So after they announce that I can be released, the bailiff walks in and unlocks and, and, and you’re free, and I think then I got handed a copy of the indictment. And there’s a cover page and some pieces with that. And then I go out in the lobby and the attorney says, “I’m taking your case, of course, and I have another kind of partner that’s gonna, that I’m gonna bring in on your case, and we’re gonna meet on Sunday afternoon and just get started.” And he said a few things that turned out to not be true, and it, I don’t blame him that these were not true. He said this case has been building for years, and it’s been building below the surface, and he had already talked to the AUSA, and all the discovery is coming on Monday, and it’s mass- it just, it’s gonna be massive.

Alex: So the AUSA misled him about the strength of his case.

Ryan: All of it. And, and so this one was so weird, though, because even in their early meetings, it was they would come back from the meetings with the government, and then they’d come into the room where I had all the artifacts and the evidence, and they would just rub their temples because they would say, “Normally, the government has a different angle on the same-

Alex: Facts

Ryan: … facts.” We’ve never had a case before where the defendant has a set of facts and the government has a set of facts. They are 180 to each other, and the government’s facts are words, and the defendant’s facts are exhibits and evidence-

Alex: Yeah, and documents and collaborations

Ryan: … and documents. And, I mean, the government told my attorneys early on that I was driving a vehicle that didn’t even exist yet-

Amy: Oh my God

Ryan: … at the time. They told them that I was driving around in a Tesla Cybertruck when Elon Musk didn’t even have a Cybertruck.

Alex: It would’ve been a simple Google to just Google… when did Cybertrucks come out?

Ryan: And, you know, they, they said, “This is our best evidence. He faked even having a relationship with this company over here.” We’re not talking about faked projects. We’re talking about faked relationship. And they came back to the office, and, “Here’s the purchase orders. Here’s the photos of our crews on the job sites. Here’s the bids. Here’s all the emails back and forth.” And a witness had just represented to them that they had never even done business with us, maybe traded a couple emails here and there.

Alex: Are you saying that witness lied to the government?

Amy: But nobody lies to the FBI.

Alex: Nobody lies to the FBI.

Ryan: And if they do-

Alex: They get in big trouble

Ryan: … they get in big trouble.

Amy: Huge.

Ryan: Um, scratch-

Amy: Big time out.

Alex: Nothing happened to that guy either. Yeah. Well, I, I wanna take you… I mean, the, the, the beginning of this is just so traumatic and I know such a human toll. You obviously had a good result. We were very, very happy to represent you and work on this.

Amy: Well, how did you two get together?

Alex: Yeah, so I, I wanna ask you, how did you get from the first attorney who y- you don’t really have much of a say in. I mean, it shows up with your dad, a great guy. How did you get from the first set of representation to ended up, you know, being represented by a firm in Nashville, Tennessee?

Ryan: Yeah. So we initially thought that we could have some, I now know, called meet and confers with the AUSA, and that we could at least shrink it.

Alex: Shrink the case down.

Ryan: Shrink the case down. Shrink the tumor is what we talked about. And so finally, after the first of the year, the scoreboard comes out- And it’s this color-coded list. And by the way, I love this list because the AUSA explains in painstaking detail that the fraudulent ones are colored green. And I get this, and I said, “Wait a minute, my attorneys. You’re telling me that when I committed bank fraud, that was my green conduct?” And then the ones where I didn’t commit fraud, those are red?

Amy: Failures of the FBI.

Alex: Because he’s thinking about it from his perspective. Like, “Oh, I, I can go forward on this one. I, I got a green light here.”

Ryan: You know what’s sad is, is that was explained to me that way by these attorneys, and I said, “That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.” There’s no way any human being thinks like that.

Alex: Well, they’re, they shouldn’t.

Ryan: And they’re like, “No.”

Amy: There is.

Ryan: And, but, but actually it gets worse. He says, “Well, I color-coded it that way so that the agent would know, go investigate versus stop investigating.”

Amy: Oh, oh. Oh, so they’re investigating the crime that they arrested you for six months later.

Ryan: The agent wasn’t bright enough. He needed a little stop sign to tell him-

Alex: Don’t, don’t look at those anymore

Ryan: … green means go. And, and then yellow was, “We’re just not sure yet.”

Amy: I just wanna pause, though, for a minute, because this is something that’s always been remarkable to me. So you are sitting in this process. There has been a grand jury indictment that you did these things-

Alex: Easy. Easy stuff

Amy: … that are in the indictment, right? So one would think that the investigation had been complete-

Alex: Oh, no

Amy: … before they arrested you.

Alex: Oh, no.

Amy: But that is not true. And so that is, that just shows what a sham the whole process is.

Ryan: All, all of it is afterwards. Meanwhile, and we later got these emails, and meanwhile, the AUSA is emailing the bank, telling them things like, “I assure you that he’s pleading soon.”

Alex: My God.

Ryan: “We just have to finish these discussions, and then-”

Amy: Are you serious?

Ryan: “… a plea is coming,” and sending him stuff like when he filed the, when he, he emailed them the indictment and said, “Here’s the indictment of Mr. Bloom. The next time you’ll hear from me is to discuss restitution.” It’s good stuff.

Alex: So hold on. This was supposed to be a question about how you found us.

Ryan: Oh, I know. I, I got this totally wrong. I got this… I, I… So-

Alex: I, I like the color-coded story. It’s ridiculous.

Ryan: So the scorecard breaks down. It’s obvious we’re going to trial, and I want a war plan. You remember I used the word war plan with you-

Alex: Oh, yeah

Ryan: … a lot early on. I wanted a war plan. What are we doing to go to trial, and how are we gonna go win this thing? And it did not seem like my original crew, one of them was ready for war tomorrow. I think the other one was a little more tentative about it, and I had kinda laid out some expectations around a war plan and around some aggression and kinda, like, time to take the gloves off.

Alex: Because you feel like, “Look, I’m innocent here. I, I don’t want anybody hesitating.”

Ryan: Zero hesitation at this point. We know what we know. W- and the big issue with the scorecard is they didn’t turn anything green. They just turned it either yellow, so it’s just like, we’re just not sure. We just won’t concede. And so it was like, this is worthless. We’re going to trial. Okay. So I’m researching, and I’m reading tons of cases all around the country on PACER, which is a weird, nerdy way to work your own case.

Alex: Very nerd- and, uh, very weird and nerdy. And for the listeners, PACER is the kind of global system for docketing in federal courts. So every federal case is in PACER, and the docket’s in PACER, which means the collection of documents related to that case, and you can go into PACER and get access to almost any document in any criminal or civil case in federal court.

Ryan: Exactly. And so I’m just reading cases, reading cases, reading cases, searching by keywords, and I come across United States versus Shetty in, uh, Washington State, and something that I learned is a thing from the case is this amicus brief has been filed, and there’s kinda some big attention around this sorta novel case. And I’m reading the, the motions to dismiss and the pleadings in this case, and there’s this name at the bottom, and it’s Alex Little from Tennessee.

Amy: It’s J. Alex Little from Tennessee.

Ryan: J. Alex Little. J. Alex Little from Tennessee-

Alex: There are a few other names on there, but-

Ryan: Is at the-

Alex: … mine, mine was at the top

Ryan: … is at the bottom of these, uh, uh, of these motions, and I’m just vibing. I mean, I’m just like, “Yes, yes!” Like, this guy’s aggressive but he’s smart. It’s not, like, unhinged aggressive. It is, like, surgically aggressive.

Alex: Did anyone tell you to go out and look for other pleadings? I mean, how did you sort of… ’Cause it’s so rare for a client or a defendant to go out and do that sort of research. So why did you go from just, like, instead of googling who are the best attorneys, how did you actually go, like, “I’m gonna go look and see what actually happened in the trenches”? W- wha- what w- how did that thought process happen?

Ryan: Well, so a Google search is worthless if you’re looking for a lawyer-

Alex: Yeah, it totally is

Ryan: … because it’s optimized to the max- Well, so a Google search … and everyone says they do white collar federal criminal cases, and they’re a bulldog that’ll fight and win. And so I, I think it started with me finding my own case. Well, if I can find my own case, I can find other cases, and I was using PACER Monitor. Not s- not a sponsorship, but they actually are, like, an interface to actual PACER. And so if you paid extra, you could search by keyword.

Alex: Oh, there you go.

Ryan: Well, I start finding keywords from other indictments, pleas, um, sentencing memorandum Uh-

Alex: That’s so smart

Ryan: … just start reading and just, you know, seeing how these things go. But the one… There’s one really depressing thing. I’m never finding people that are ever, that ever have a non-criminal outcome.

Amy: Yeah. It’s-

Alex: Not a lot of winners

Amy: … it’s very rare.

Ryan: Uh, it, it is not. It’s not 1%. In the types of cases I’m, was facing and looking at, it’s gotta be, like, one in 1,000.

Amy: And that, like, and, and to, like, to level set that, right? Because it’s not because the other 999 people are necessarily guilty. It’s because it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, to fight. It’s because people wanna, you know, if they can negotiate an outcome where they’re away from their family for less time, sometimes people will plead because of that.

Alex: Even if they’re innocent.

Amy: Even if they’re innocent. It’s because of civil forfeiture. Right? So they just are like-

Alex: Money. They have no money. The s- the government takes it from the beginning.

Amy: Mm-hmm. I mean, it just, and, uh, and-

Ryan: Stacked charges

Amy: … stacked charges.

Ryan: Trial penalties. It was real easy that I’m not going away. I, I’m not, I’m not going away, period. Not on my own signature. And so they-

Amy: So you’re reading these cases

Ryan: … and, and so, so you never see them getting, resulting in non-criminal outcomes. So I’m reading these cases. I find, you know, I’m, I’m led to Shetty by keywords. That leads me to Alex Little. And one night, late at night, which I’m sure is when most of your referrals come in- I just email-

Alex: Surprisingly high number of emails between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM.

Ryan: I just email Alex, and I feel like I gotta pitch this to him. It’s almost a pitch, because in my mind, this isn’t that big of a case compared to what I think.

Alex: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: I, I, I, I have a thought, I have thoughts of Alex that turn out to not be true. Um, but I’m thinking, “This guy only takes big cases.” “I can’t, I probably can’t afford him. Um, but if I pitch this to him as a really unique, interesting case that he can win, maybe that’s…”

Alex: You, you found us. Um, y- you know, you sent that email.

Ryan: Yeah. I-

Alex: It worked out

Ryan: … so I, I send the email. I talk to Alex, and I, I had a gut check moment that I could put my hands on the resources that it was gonna take to go win this thing. Uh, these guys earned every penny of it. There were-

Alex: Shout out to Ted. We haven’t shouted out Ted.

Ryan: Shout out to Ted Canter, uh, who did-

Alex: Lawyer extraordinaire

Ryan: … he was incredible. Uh, just absolutely put in the work. So there’d been some resets of the trial. The, the main AUS, the AUSA that started the case was disqualified because of Ted and, and Alex’s, not just motion work, but also, um, you know, arguments in, you know, in a live hearing. Um, and then a couple weeks pass, and there’s kind of a conversation starting about the case going away without a trial, and then there’s another conversation. Eventually, Ted, you know, you, or Alex, you and Ted came to town and, and, and did some, did, did some working. And, like, what’s, what’s tough is… And I, I think about this all the time. I think about a world in which I get a target letter. And I hire you guys, or given the strength of the evidence, I probably hire any attorney with a pulse. Um, but in this fantasy, I hire you guys, and you guys come to town, and you present what you presented, and the case goes away, and there’s never an indictment. And it is a painful, it is a, an inconvenient amount of money, but it doesn’t cost me almost two years, uh, you know, a year and a half plus of my life. It doesn’t cost me the pain and suffering the l- the nights of, of laying awake.

Amy: Your child hiding.

Ryan: Anxiety, my child hiding, my wife terrified, all of our kids just living in eggshells for, for the time that we did, um, because what you guys presented was just the truth. It was just the reality. It was just the other side of the story. It was just the, there’s two sides to every story. Um, and so it’s, like, almost, like, kinda tragic-

Amy: Absolutely

Ryan: … that, that in the end, a very simple, truthful presentation to two prosecutors that don’t have a financial interest in the outcome of the case, um, and, and it’s, and it’s over. And so Ted and Alex had left town after giving the presentation. I like to picture there’s kind of this mic drop… at the end. So they mic drop. I, these guys go back to Nashville. And at this time, in order to, to deal with the financial wreckage of all this, um, m- my wife’s been fortunate to, to have family help her, you know, and the kids buy a new house that’s gonna be the house they’re gonna live in if this, i- if this trial goes badly. And every life plan we had at that stage was all, had a fork in the road of Dad’s in prison or Dad’s home at night. Um, and I mean, in, in every kid’s birthday, every kid’s birthday, you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, my, my daughter,” she’s, my oldest girl, she’s, she, she’s thir- she turned 13 in, in March right before I hired Alex. And you’re just thinking, “Oh, my gosh. You’re, you’re so beautiful. You’re growing up,” and, “Man, am I gonna be here for her 14th birthday?”

Alex: That’s terrible.

Ryan: And then it gets worse because you go, “Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute.”

Amy: It’s not just 14.

Ryan: “If I’m, if I’m not here for her 14th birthday- Can I make it back by 18? Am I gonna watch this girl graduate from high school? And then there’s a part of you that’s like, “Man, maybe I should get this over with. Would I rather, would I rather be there for her 14th birthday, but maybe not walk her down the aisle if she, you know… If, if I do seven year…” You know, you’re just, you’re doing that math.

Amy: And it’s not just about what is right or what is just, it is about what, how can I minimize the damage-

Ryan: What, yeah, what-

Amy: … of these false allegations.

Ryan: What do I wanna be here for? And I’ve got, you know, and, and now I’ve got, you know, a freshman, eighth grade, seventh grade, sixth grade child, and you’re like, there’s no way that dad can be gone for any period of time and not miss out on, not only some of the big events, but those little moments, those parenting moments. How’s my wife gonna raise these kids alone? I, I mean, it, it-

Amy: And she, and she works. The impact on her career. The impact-

Ryan: And, and, and she, yeah, and, and she has a career, but she can’t, she can’t make enough money to support the family and, and certainly I’m not leaving any kind of a nest egg. Like, just so everybody knows, the DOJ wipes out the nest egg. And I get this call from Ted. It had been about three weeks since the meeting. I’d already pressed Alex and Ted to get an update. And they’re like, “No. No, no updates.” Okay, okay. All right. All right. And Ted calls, “Hey, I’m putting you on a conference call with Alex.” And then, “All right, Alex, are you telling him or is Ted telling…” You know. And Alicia has figured out that I’m on the phone. The music has stopped. She’s now made her way to where I’m at because she can sense that this is an important phone call. And Alex or Ted, I think you let Ted deliver it. Basically, they’re dismissing it with some conditions, which I’ve ex- gone into all the mechanics of, of that in other forums, so I won’t bore everyone to death with that. But they’re dismissing it with conditions. You’ll never have a criminal record. You’re not confessing, admitting, pleading, whatever. Um, you know, and it, a- and, and it’s, it’s, it, it, it’s over. And then Alex cursed me. He said, “But you, you really can’t tell anybody.” “I need you to keep this until this is in concrete.”

Alex: Until it’s in, until it’s in the docket, until it’s on the court. Yeah.

Ryan: Until it’s in concrete, you need to keep this on very, very low down. And I’m like, “Thanks, Alex.” I, you know. And I got off the phone and I turned to Alicia and I just said, “It’s over.” And she just, tears start running down her face. Nothing’s running down my face ’cause I’m just numb. I’m just like, just I don’t feel anything. I, I, I didn’t feel anything. And I, I called my mom and I was just real quiet and she just said, “Is it over? Is it over, Ryan? Ryan, is it over?” And I just, it… Yeah, it’s… And I mean, “Woo.” I mean, like, it was almost like through the phone. And, and called my dad. And, and, and then when all that was over, you know, when all, after I’d called the kind of the small circle that, that, that Alex, you know-

Alex: Allowed you to

Ryan: … allowed me to, uh, Alicia was just like, “I just, I can’t believe it.” And, you know, and she’s, I mean, you know, we’re, we’re praying and, and we’re, we’re praising God, but I’m also just sitting there just numb. And I did not leave that state of numbness for at least a week where people would be like, “Hello. Are you here?” And I… “Are you excited? Are you happy?” “Are you relieved? Are you… What a, what a relief.” I was just like, “I don’t, I don’t feel anything.” I didn’t feel anything.

Alex: When you kind of emerged from that state, if you had the opportunity to go back and tell the version of you who got that phone call in your bedroom, looked out the window and saw the police officers, when it all started, what would you, what future Ryan Bloom have told the Ryan Bloom who wakes up and is for the first time a target of the federal government?

Ryan: That’s a really tough one, ’cause in a lot of ways, even sitting here today, I still feel like I’m on that porch. I, I feel like I just opened that door. I feel like I just opened that door. I feel like I’m standing there on the porch looking out, and the agents are there, and I’m… I’ve had a hard time getting off that porch if I’m being honest.

Alex: Well, then I’ll, I’ll tell that, that version of you that you don’t go to jail, and you don’t get separated from your kids, and you’re gonna make it through. It’s gonna be the hardest thing you ever do, but it’s gonna make you into a better person.

Ryan: This is going to consume the next 18 months of your life, and you’re gonna be shocked to learn that this is quick. This is actually-

Alex: Super fast.

Amy: I was like-

Ryan: This is actually, like, shockingly fast-

Amy: Rapid speed.

Ryan: … for, for this. Um, and I think I would say, “And Ryan, you’re gonna encounter some things that are gonna be so profoundly unfair.” You are about you’re about to, or you’re realizing you are screwed. But your wife and your kids are what matter the most to you, and there’s nothing about this process that is going to take that away from you. And the reason I say that is, is I would have never known this until I walked through it. My sweet wife, she never blinked. There was never a moment of, “Is there an exit strategy on this for me?” My parents never blinked. I mean, they were just, “We’re in here.” And so the next thing I would tell Ryan on the porch is, walk, don’t run to an attorney. I survived, and I’d always struggled. Like, in times of great anxiety and fear, I had always struggled with just, like, just dark thoughts and just, just struggled a lot in my mind. But it was incredible, because I proved to myself I didn’t… I, I had so much purpose during that time. Everything felt important. I never felt dark. I never felt hopeless. I never felt, you know, like I was at the end of my rope. Um, and so I, I, I proved a lot to myself, and I showed something to my kids.

Alex: That’s impor- so important.

Ryan: And I just pray that as they lead their lives and they go through their challenges, and hopefully it’s not federal-

Alex: And nothing like this.

Ryan: Hopefully it’s not federal legal problems, but it could be relationships. It could be, you know, pregnancy. It could be career. I know my kids are bound to have a challenge in life, and I just hope that they remember mom and dad hanging in there.

Amy: They will.

Alex: You can do hard things. You can do hard things. You taught them that. Ryan-

Amy: I, c- I, just one thing too. Like, I think, you know, when you talked about the end of this and how it felt and the numbness, and one of the hardest things to realize when you survive something like this, even if you win, is that there is no apology. There is no, “We got it wrong.” There usually isn’t some financial reward. It’s just the end of it. And then it’s a normal Tuesday and a normal Wednesday, but your life looks completely different forever.

Alex: I appreciate, you know… It, it was a privilege and a pleasure to be your lawyer, and I, I appreciate your time being here. Thank you, thank you so much for talking to us.

Ryan: Well, thanks for, thanks for having me on. Thanks for taking my case. Thank you, Ted. And Amy, to you and your husband, I do greatly appreciate that you were the one loud, god, loud… so loud voice out there even evangelizing the idea that you can win. And you inspired me, and your husband inspired me that I can’t find many acquittals and dismissals on PACER. In fact, I remember I’d find a dismissal, and then I’d figure out the person died. And it was like, God, yay.

Alex: Oh, that’s so depressing.

Ryan: And so-

Alex: So depressing.

Amy: But thank you for being the story that ended well.

Alex: Yep, amen to that.

Ryan: Well, I also o- owe Alex for that one. All roads bring us back here to Alex. And the team. It’s an incredible team here.

Alex: It is.

Ryan: It is.

Alex: A full team. Well, thank you so much, and, uh, I appreciate you talking.

Ryan: Thanks.

Alex: Take care. This is the TARGET podcast. Every week we’re gonna sit down with someone who’s been in the crosshairs of an investigation, sometimes federal, sometimes state. People have been indicted, exonerated in some cases, some who’ve been pardoned, some who’ve been convicted, and some who’ve been acquitted.

Amy: This isn’t about guilt or innocence. It’s about what they wish they’d known on day one.

Alex: Every single one of the people we’re going to talk to has a day one story. That’s ’cause most people don’t understand how this system works.

Amy: Until they’re standing inside of it.